In the beginning when God said "Let Us make man in Our image....."
Who is Us referring to?
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15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Let the Word interpret the Word. Isaiah 28:10-13
22 comments:
This is my understanding of it. I always have a hard time explaining this because I don't know the ins and outs of the Trinity and I”m sure I lack understanding on this subject. In other words this is what I believe and I may be wrong in some aspects – but not the Trinity, of that I'm sure. But when the Spirit was introduced I'm not sure.
There are a couple of verses that are plural when referring to God....
Gen 1:26 'let us make' And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 11:7 'let us go down' Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Isa 6:8 'who will go for us' Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
These are all members of the heavenly court.
Two divine personalities were working as one. They were equal in that both were God but not equal in authority – just like a husband and wife. They are one but not equal in authority. Jesus said “My Father is greater than I” John 14:28. This can also be paralleled with the church – there are many members with different offices and gifts but we are all one.
So who was with God? Who is the “us” and “our?”
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.
The Word is Jesus because in John it says that the Word became flesh...
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
God is one but consists of more than one Person. So we see that God was not alone at creation and in John we see whom that Person was which was Jesus. God created man (flesh) but we were not indwelled with the Spirit but we could be lead by God who is Spirit. (which is outside of us). Then came Jesus in the flesh who was later indwelled with God's Holy Spirit, and then we were. So flesh came first, then Spirit. The revealing of the Holy Spirit would come later and be witnessed and recorded at Jesus' baptism.
When you read all of these things together as we should, then we will see the revealing of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who are one and who acts as a unit.
Hey, I love that graphic. And how true!!! I was watching National Georgraphic the other day and they had a show on hobbits and how they're real because they found small skeleton heads. I wonder if "myths and fables" in the Bible is only speaking of religion, or everything.?. Maybe that's a part of this whole utopian society - making fairytales come true but in the power of Satan? But that's another topic. :)
Carol
to your 1st comment, I only have one observation and one question:
In the earth as in heaven the ruler is in authority, i.e., Kings have thrones, God the Father has a throne,
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Rev 22: 1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
God the Son has a throne,
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches
I have read the whole story man's history past, present, and future--the Bible--and yet I have not found the throne of the Holy Spirit. Cam you show it to me in Scripture?
@ 2nd comment: Myths and fables are by definition lies--Who is the father of lies? Our enemy.
Peace
There is no throne of the Holy Spirit because He is spirit. The spirit is compared to wind in the Bible so can the wind be confined to an area or object that we design? No. But if you want to get technical, Jesus is indwelled with God's spirit (which is holy) and so the HS is on the throne through Jesus.
Keep in mind that a throne can also mean a sovereign power or authority - it doesn't have to mean a physical object but in this case, I believe it is both. But just because the Bible doesn't say the HS sits on a throne does not mean there is no trinity, or that the HS is not Divine.
WE do not set the criteria and demand that any part of the Godhead adhere to it. The natural reading of Scripture speaks clearly about the trinity even though that exact word is not used. The word Trinity does not add to the Word of God, it encompasses what was already said into one word in order for easy explanation. There are other examples like rapture, epistle, synoptic gospels, cosmic signs, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, omnipresence, omnipotent, and I'm sure there's more. But we know these things are true because they are spelled out for us in Scripture literally, we just condensed it I guess - but it doesn't make them false.
Bottom line, the only way that a person could question the Trinity is if they heard it from another source because the straight reading of the Bible is clear and plain.
Carol
What are the Father and the Son? Are they not Spirit? John 4:24
Peace
On my way to Church. I wll respond at length later.
Peace
The "trinity", by the mere fact of it not being in scripture, has thereby been added via man's doctrine. What did God say about that? (Do not forget your comment about the "myths & fables", please)
Two divine personalities were working as one. They were equal in that both were God but not equal in authority –.....if this is so Carol why did Jesus say:
Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation.....
.....the only way that a person could question the Trinity is if they heard it from another source because the straight reading of the Bible is clear and plain....
What are you saying? I read the Bible straight, and the "trinity" is clearly and plainly man-made.
Elohim is a family, the members of the Godhead, of which there are only Two.
Peace and blessing
Thanks for your comments. :) I want to understand something...are you denying that there's a Holy Spirit or that the Holy Spirit is not a part of the Trinity?
It's it's the latter, then consider this verse:
1 John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The other translations say 'there are three that testify' or 'three witnesses'.
This is a very strong, and clear verse as to the Trinity. This verse leaves no room for doubt but if you have any doubts, then please tell me what you think this verse means. I await your comment.
Blessings,
carol
p.s. Did you get my message to you in your shout box about your award? Don't you want it?
About the award, nevermind. I just saw your response after I logged into my site using Firefox. Some of the comments do not appear if I use Safari and so I miss some of them unless I check Firefox, which I just did.
Don't forget to put your award up somewhere on your site. :)
No, I am not denying the Holy Spirit, only that he is God.
Carol, I refer you to Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ (God the Son)
which God gave unto him (the Father)
and he sent and signified it by his angel (the Holy Spirit which is a ministering Spirit)
Peace and Blessing
Are you saying that those who believe the Holy Spirit is a part of the Trinity is guilty of idolatry?
Rev 1:1 doesn't prove anything nor do I see how it's relevent to the topic. Can you explain. Also, those verses you gave do not go againt the Holy Spirit being part of the Trinity. I have given you many verses which God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were acting together, in unison, as One and yet you deny this? I'm afraid you haven't given any verses proving your theory but I have given many..(but you claim you did not get my messages) I also referred you to my blog where I wrote about this - I gave many verses as to the Trinity all acting in unison.
1 John 5:7 states that these three are one. That cinches it for me. You would have to explain that verse away, along with many other verses speaking of the Trinity but you have provided NOTHING to support your view. The burdon of proof is on YOU if you want to dismantle the Trinity. But it really doesn't matter because the Truth stands with or without your acceptance of it.
God bless
I have written about this subject also with many references also:
http://kingskid3.blogspot.com/2007/10/is-holy-spirit-god.html
I referenced Rev 1:1 to show you the three that bear record in heaven. The scripture says the revelation of Jesus, which God (Father) gave to Him (Jesus) who sent and signified it by His Angel (who is a Holy Spirit--in fact all Angels that did not rebel against God are HOLY SPIRITS.
MAN MADE DOCTRINE:
Here is a quote from the Grolier encyclopedia.
Difficulties soon emerged in formulating and understanding this threefold "economy." Divergent views led early to numerous Trinitarian controversies such as those over subordinationism (the teaching that the Son is subordinate to the Father and the Holy Spirit to both; see Arianism) and modalism (the view that the three modes are transitory; see Monarchianism and Sabellianism). The Councils of Nicaea (325) and Constantinople (381) outlined the dogma of the Trinity in express rejection of these teachings.
The Nicene, or Niceno-Constantinopolitan, creed has defined through the ages, for both Catholic (Roman and Orthodox) and Reformation (Lutheran, Reformed, and Anglican) churches, the basic doctrine of the Trinity. Catholic and Protestant theology has sought in various ways to make the doctrine stated at Nicaea comprehensible. Saint Augustine's lucid analogies of the divine Trinity in our experience of ourselves as memory, understanding, and will, and in our experience of our own existence as characterized by being, truth, and love, have been the point of departure for most subsequent study. In the religious thought of the Enlightenment (17th and 18th centuries), there was a strong reaction against Trinitarianism as an "orthodox" mystery without basis in either experience or reason this was the view of Unitarianism and deism and of much 19th-century liberal theology. The great figures of 20th-century theology Karl Barth, Paul Tillich, and, most recently, Karl Rahner despite their diversity of outlook, have again found the Trinity a central, in fact an unavoidable, structure for expressing the Christian understanding of God. (End of quote)
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. (Isaiah 57:15) It says "I dwell with Him", not them
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. (Isaiah 63:9-10)
This spirit was called two different names, the angel of his presence and holy spirit. Remember in Exodus the 3rd chapter the angel told Moses, "Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Meaning this angel is also holy or a holy spirit, and also remember that this spirit was called the angel of the Lord.
And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? (Judges 2:1-2
It's the angel that doing the talking correct? Notice what he says, "I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you: but ye have not obeyed my voice. The angel has no covenant with Israel! The angel is simply speaking for the Lord.
Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept. (Judges 2:3-4)
That's very clear don't you think? The angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, not the Lord Himself. This angel simply brings the message from God to the people. Each time this angel spoke he sounded as if he was God Himself. By saying, "I made you to go up out of the land of Egypt, I made a covenant with you, I will be an adversary unto thine adversaries. But we see plainly that it is in fact the angel that is speaking
Here is a site that explains all of your concerns and does a much better job than I ever could. Please take the time to read it.
http://www.christianity.co.nz/trinity4.htm
Blessings
Carol,
I went to the site and I read their statements, however, that does not change the fact that it is an errant doctrine. I used to believe that God was triune, and that man was triune, that your spirit goes to heaven, Sunday was the Lord's day, I was going to be raptured, that "tongues" was a heavenly language, that you can eat anything, "just pray over it", that being sprinkled in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost was being baptized, oh yes let us not forget--you are saved (now), simply by calling on the name of the Lord.
Then Carol I started to read the scriptures with unscaled eyes, I found out that every thing that I thought was truth, came out of the Roman Catholic Church, from the observance of the first day of the week instead of the sabbath, to Jesus dying on Friday and rising on Sunday morning (this could not be the Jesus of scripture because He said that He would be in the heart of the earth for three (3) days and three (3) nights), Easter was a pagan ritual for temple prostitutes, hence the eggs and bunnies (summer solstice), Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus being born, it was a ritual for the day after the winter solstice, the day of the unconquered sun.
As Christians we all need to read the Bible for what it says not what some ancient "church father", supposed "scholar", supposed to be "shepherd", family members, snd friends have intrepreted it to mean.
Yes, I know you are not Catholic, however, the Protestants only protested the infallability of the Pope. They broke away but they kept all of the polluted pago-christian doctrine mentioned above. This is Mystery Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth. Rev 17:5. If you wonder why I say this look at verse 9.
No need in going around and around with this, you choose to believe those that you feel are more learned than you, I choose to believe the Word of God.
Peace and blessing
BTW When God speaks of whoredom it is when, we His creation, are whoring around with another god.
Peace
I see that many people still believe that there is a Trinity--God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and that there are scriptures that prove it.
Well, let's see if we can find all three or as some say one with three personalities.
Let's start in Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
We read that the Lord "revealed His eternal power and Godhead ", which means more than one.
Let's see how many we see as we read the scriptures. Turn to Proverbs 30:1-4. You read that Agur asked a question, "What is His name and what is His Son's name. He did not ask about three, but two.
Turn to Genesis 1:26-27, we read where God says "Let us..." so this alone tells us there there is more than one. But Who is this that is speaking and what is His name?
Turn to John 1:18, which tells us that no man has seen God (Father) at any time. Turn to John 5:36-37, we see that it is the Father that we have never seen or heard His voice.
So who is this that is talking in Genesis 2:26-27, and who is it that Moses and the 73 elders saw in Exodus 24:9-11?? Because scripture says that they saw God. How about Moses, he heard and saw God's back parts on Mt. Sinai, Exodus 33:12-23,34:1-9.
So, if no man has seen or heard the Father at anytime, Who is this God that is talking to Moses?
Turn to Exodus 6:1-3, we see God talking to Moses and telling him that He is God Almighty and that His name is Jehovah.
Now, I ask you, how can Jehovah be the Father if no man has seen or heard the Father??
So, Who is Moses talking to that said, I am God Almighty??
King's Kid,
You said, "No need in going around and around with this, you choose to believe those that you feel are more learned than you, I choose to believe the Word of God."
You are way out of line here because I ONLY follow the Word of God, read my blog some time. I gave you the link to that huge site because they addressed the Nicean Creed along with others you mentioned - of course I do not agree with absolutely EVERYTHING they say. No one agrees with another to THAT degree. But to say that I follow doctrines of man and people that are more learned than me is a flat-out lie and I believe this came from your flesh out of anger towards me. If you TRULY knew me, you would know that I am not impressed with learned men with initials after their name. I've always said that a scholar has nothing on a Spirit-filled believer.
Now if you disagree with me that's one thing, but to say that I don't follow the Bible but learned men is an insult and slanderous. Not nice!
The fact is, I've given MANY Scriptures which proves you wrong and you have avoided all of them. The verses you have given me jump from topic to topic and really don't address the issue. How are holiday traditions related to this topic? It isn't.
While I am upset with your erroneous accusations, I have no animosity towards you. I will state for the record that what you have accused me of (listening to man rather than the Bible) goes against every fibre of my being! This is the one constant message throught my blog - to read your Bibles and beware of false teachers and teachings. I don't hold ANY man up, only Christ and His perfect Word and you cannot prove otherwise. My blog (and my life if you really knew me) would attest to this!
So I will bow out of this arguement because it will get us nowhere. It already has resulted in slander so I take that as my que to leave. I'm not going to stop coming to your blog or anything or even conversing with you, but I do think you owe me an apology. Not because I want the apology but so that you can be forgiven of God - I have already forgiven you.
God bless you sister,
Carol
Carol,
I hope you know that I am not angry nor do allow my flesh to rule me. I have liked you since I first read your blog, and I still do.
I thought that you read my Meme, I refuse to become angry that is not why I came to the blogshpere.
In terms of slanderous, I could feel the same way in regards to this statement, but I don't. .
....Bottom line, the only way that a person could question the Trinity is if they heard it from another source because the straight reading of the Bible is clear and plain…
...accused me of (listening to man rather than the Bible)
Since we are only cyberly connected it makes it hard to decipher a persons intention. I made the “you choose” statement because of this:
……..explains all of your concerns and does a much better job than I ever could.
....The verses you have given me jump from topic to topic and really don't address the issue.
Isaiah 28 10-13 tells us how to obtain knowledge and understanding. The verses that I have given do address the issue. However, when you read them with a “I believe in the Trinity “ mind, they seem “off topic”, but they are not irrelevant.
….How are holiday traditions related to this topic? It isn't….
I was merely stating what I used to believe, sharing where I have come from, and saying that what people call Christianity today comes directly from the HRC church. Please read my comments again, only this time put your flesh under subjection, and you will see that I was by no means attacking you. The only one happy is the Enemy, he loves it when we hold on dearly to his lies and refuse to investigate why.
That being said, if you notice you are one of my friends, and will continue to be. Please accept my apology for anything (except the Word) that I may have said to offend you. That certainly is not my intention.
Peace and blessings
The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
Oops. I forgot I said this "..Bottom line, the only way that a person could question the Trinity is if they heard it from another source because the straight reading of the Bible is clear and plain…"
I guess that was kind of snarky huh? Please accept my apologies. And yes you're right, the enemy is having a field day with this.
It seems we are at an impasse regarding the Trinity. I never was one that follows "agree to disagree" but there comes a time when we must walk away from the subject after we've both studied. We both read from the same Bible and gleen different things from it and we both are firm in our belief so the only thing left is to trust that the Spirit of Truth will teach us.
I put up a post about the Trinity on my blog so just ignore it. We're going to play nicey nice now okay? :)
Have a blessed day Shirley - I look forward to reading more of your posts.
:)
After reading ove these comments, I noticed that there was a question that I did not address:
1 John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
....This verse leaves no room for doubt but if you have any doubts, then please tell me what you think this verse means....
What this scripture means to me is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one in agreement:
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Also the Lord said of Adam and Eve....the two shall become one flesh--the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit become one will/thought.
Peace
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